Innovation Junkies Podcast

Stephen Shapiro, A Challenge-Centered Approach to Innovation

The Jeffs chat with Stephen Shapiro, author & 2015 Speaker Hall of Fame inductee. Discussion topics include: Stephen’s five categories and 25 lenses for reframing problems and challenges, getting a company culture of innovation to stick, & the differences between open innovation and external innovation.

Jeff Standridge: This is Jeff Standridge. And this is the Innovation Junkies Podcast. If you want to drastically improve your business, learn proven-growth strategy, and generate sustained results for your organization you’ve come to the right place. Over the next half hour, we’re going to be sharing specific strategies, tactics, tips that you can use to grow your business no matter the size, no matter the industry, and no matter the geography. Weekly, we’ll bring in a top mover and shaker, someone who’s done something unbelievable in his or her business and we’ll dig [inaudible 00:00:36]. We’ll uncover specific strategies, tactics, and tools that they’ve used to help you achieve your business goals. Welcome to the Innovation Junkies Podcast.

Hey, guys. If you’re looking to put your business on the fast track to achieving sustained strategic growth, this episode is sponsored by the team at Innovation Junky. To learn more about our Growth DX, go to innovationjunkie.com/growthdx. Now let’s get on with the show.

Jeff Standridge: Hey, guys. Jeff Standridge here. And this is the Innovation Junkies Podcast.

Jeff Amerine: Hey. It’s Jeff Amerine. Glad to join you today. Jeff, how are you doing, man?

Jeff Standridge: Man, if I was any better, I’d have to be twins. How about you?

Jeff Amerine: We both got the same glasses, I mean.

Jeff Standridge: Yeah. Too much fun for one person to enjoy.

Jeff Amerine: Absolutely. Well, we’re super lucky today to have on a thought leader and innovator, a really amazing guy in Stephen Shapiro. And he’s a hall of fame speaker. He’s the author of six books. He’s written things like Invisible Solutions, Best Practices Are Stupid, Personality Poker. For over 20 years, he’s been a leading expert in innovation. He’s spoken to audiences in 50 countries. Spent time at Accenture, has led a huge practice there of over 20,000 people. He’s written a variety of amazing things, and he’s been inducted into the Speaker Hall of Fame in 2015. So we’re super fortunate to have a thought leader in innovation with us today. Without further ado, let’s bring Steven on. Hey, Stephen, welcome.

Stephen Shapiro: Excellent. Great to be here. Is it Jeff and Jeff, or is it Jeff squared? How do you prefer it to?

Jeff Standridge: The Jeffs.

Jeff Amerine: The Jeffs.

Stephen Shapiro: The Jeffs.

Jeff Amerine: All capital letters, if you will.

Stephen Shapiro: Absolutely.

Jeff Standridge: Yeah, Jeff rolls his eyes every time I say this, but we actually spell our names differently, the second F in my name is silent. It’s really great to have you with us today, Stephen.

Stephen Shapiro: Great to be here.

Jeff Standridge: So let’s get started here. You spent some time at Accenture. Talk to us about how you got into the world of innovation.

Stephen Shapiro: So I was engineer by background, so I have a degree in industrial engineering. And when I was working, I was doing a lot of engineering type of work. In fact, I was actually around something called business process re-engineering, which was about basically making companies more efficient. And what I realized is that when we optimize the company’s processes, the employees would be downsized, and so I had a bit of an existential meltdown. And in 1995, I took a leave of absence and realized I loved what I was doing. I loved helping companies, but I wanted to help them grow rather than helping them shrink. And so that’s when I partnered with some other people. We created this big, great innovation practice, and it was really awesome. That’s how I got into it.

Jeff Standridge: Very good. Very good. Talk to us about your perspective on innovation. How do you define innovation, and how do you go about ensuring that innovations occur within organizations that you work with?

Stephen Shapiro: So I tend to define innovation by one word, which is relevance. To me, that’s the name of the game here, because what we want to do is stay relevant in the mind of the consumer, the buyer, the market, our clients. Because that’s if we’re not meeting their needs, we’re going to be out of business. And the way to do that is not through ideas in the way that a lot of other companies do innovation. But from my perspective, the key to innovation, predictable, repeatable innovation is actually to use an engineering mindset towards innovation like I have, and it’s about a process. And a process of innovation should give us flexibility, but it also has to allow us to have some level of structure. And to me, the key is the process starts not with ideas, not with suggestions, not with opinions, but with issues, problems, challenges, or opportunities. And if we can focus on that, then we can unleash the greatest value, because we’re focusing on what has the greatest impact to the organizations.

Jeff Standridge: We experience a lot of times innovators or change agents becoming fixated on a great idea, a great solution. You talked about the starting point being the problem, I call it the problem result or opportunity, you call it problems, challenges, opportunities, etc. So how do you make sure, how do you get innovators or folks you’re working with to reframe and to step back and not fall in love with the idea that they’re trying to push or the solution they’re trying to execute, but to really step back and say, what’s the problem we’re trying to solve here? What’s the opportunity? How do you go about that?

Stephen Shapiro: Well, I think the first step is to make people aware of the fact that if they’re focused on solutions, paradoxically, they’re less likely to find good solutions. So that’s the first thing. Part of it’s an educational thing that we need to do, but then also we need to give them the tools. And so you mentioned my books, my latest book Invisible Solutions actually has a tool built into the book, which are 25 different lenses for reframing problems. And so that’s just one tool, but it’s a way that you can take what you thought was the problem and change the problem, look at it through a different lens. Sort of going to an optometrist where words might be blurry and then all of a sudden when you change the lens, something becomes very clear. And that’s what these lenses do, is give you clarity to find solutions that are probably right in front of you knows you’re just not seeing them because, well, we can’t see what we’re not able to see because our lenses influence everything we do.

Jeff Standridge: So talk us through some of those lenses?

Stephen Shapiro: So the lenses are broken down in five different categories. So the first category of lenses are about reducing abstraction. So one of the things that we often do is we tend to ask questions that are big, broad, abstract like how can I improve the business? Or how can I grow revenues? Or how can I increase margins? And so these first five lenses are really by taking these big, broad, abstract problems and sort of bringing them down to some level of specificity. So for example, one is the leverage lens. And I like to start with this ones, why it’s number one, which is what’s the leverage point? If we could only solve for one aspect of a problem, what would it be? What will give us the greatest amount of return for this problem? Or conversely, what’s our greatest roadblock or barrier and how could we solve for that?

Stephen Shapiro: So that’s just one of the lenses within one of those categories. The other categories, just to round it out is increasing abstraction. So when we ask questions that are too specific, we use those five lenses. There are some which are about sort of changing perspective, which is about being able to look at a problem from a different angle so you can look at it in a way that you’ve not seen before. There’s lenses around switching elements, because in a lot of cases, we solve problems that have multiple facets to it. So, for example, if I’m talking about a profitability while there’s revenues and there’s also costs. And so maybe by solving or changing, one of those will have an impact. And then the last category about zeroing in to make sure we’re actually solving the right problem to begin with.

Jeff Amerine: It sounds like much of what you talk about, and I think other elements I’ve seen your references around this idea of the curse of knowledge or expertise. It strikes me that to manage that process, to participate in that process well. Sometimes you have to dismiss what you think you already know in order to take an objective view of it. Am I getting that right or what are your thoughts on that?

Stephen Shapiro: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’m a big believer that expertise can be the enemy of innovation, in particular breakthrough innovation. So the way you talked about it is spot on. And the reason for that though, is because we just make inherent assumptions about the problem and the potential solutions. And so what the lenses actually do is you could just say, well, what are your assumptions? And that’s one way to start looking at a problem differently. But the lenses are actually specifically designed to surface particular assumptions we have. So, for example, one of the lenses is called the re-sequence lens. I love this one, I use it all the time.

Stephen Shapiro: And the assumption that we often make is that solutions or problems have particular sets of timing. Like I need to do this before I do that. But sometimes we can actually predict, and as a means of being able to get something done more quickly, rather than postponing, which means we’re going to wait, of course, we can do things in parallel. So each lens is designed to challenge a certain set of assumptions that we have about the problem.

Jeff Amerine: And one follow up question to that is, you’ve got done a lot of work around the mechanics and the process associated with innovation. Talk a little bit about how you get the behavior change and you get a culture of innovation to stick in a company that might historically be stodgy and more focused on operational efficiency rather than innovation?

Stephen Shapiro: Yeah, part of it really has to do with building some momentum around this whole concept we’re talking about. And the way that I tend to do that is I get a group of advocates who are really passionate about the work that we’re talking about. And I have a very specific model that I use to cascade that down into the organization. So part of it is recognizing that we do need to influence the leadership because if the leaders have a particular mindset and they don’t buy in, it’s hard to create a culture around innovation and problem solving like we’re talking about.

Stephen Shapiro: But if we can get that buy-in now we need to somehow institutionalize and actually reinforce it. And we’re not going to be able to, if you’re a 10,000-person company, it’s going to be difficult to get all 10,000 people through some type of intensive training, would be prohibitively expensive. But if we took 1% of the company, put them through a program and then that 1% start to influence others. And again, using this cascading model, we’ve been able to go into companies that are tens of thousands of people and get every person thinking a particular way, because it’s a very personal and interconnected conversation rather than just coming from the top. It’s more of a relational type of shift.

Jeff Amerine: Do you also find that you have to follow up with aligned incentives so that rather than it feeling one more thing they have to do and thinking about change and innovation, that it’s something that they’re truly scored on or evaluated on their performance is tied to it, is that important as well?

Stephen Shapiro: Absolutely. I mean, performance management systems are going to be a reflection of culture. I always think about culture has what is valued. There’s a lot of different ways to think about culture, but I think it’s what is valued? And what I mean by what’s valued is what gets recognized? What gets rewarded? What gets promoted? And if we don’t have a wide range of values. So in most large companies, for example, they’re focused on quarterly earnings. So what they tend to value is production. What they tend to value is hitting particular short-term targets, which means that they incentivize and reinforce things to support that belief. The challenges if you do that, first of all, you end up with an organization that’s around, short-term thinking.

Stephen Shapiro: But also equally important, it’s hard to attract and retain the people who actually have a more visionary approach towards business. The people who like innovation and long-term thinking, they’re not going to be attracted to, or they’re certainly not going to stay with a company where they’re not incentivized. So what I encourage organizations to do has to have a range of incentive strategies, recognizing there is not a one-size-fits-all strategy for this, and we need to be able to encourage people to participate in a variety of different ways.

Jeff Amerine: Hey, folks. We’ll be right back with the episode. But first, we want to tell you about a limited opportunity to take advantage of our growth DX. For a limited time, we’re offering a free strategy call to see whether our unique diagnostic tool is right for you. Go to innovationjunkie.com/growthdx, to learn more.

Jeff Standridge: Stephen, share with some of our listeners, maybe a use case or two of where you’ve been able to drive, or at least facilitate significant innovations within organizations that you’ve worked with? I think that would help bring it down to a tangible level for some of our listeners, including myself.

Stephen Shapiro: Sure. So one financial services company that I worked with, a lot of my clients don’t like their names mentioned, so I’ll just sort of say more generically like that. So this company, tens of thousands [inaudible 00:13:19] employees. What we did was we started off with a small group of people who are tasked with innovation, because the CEO made a very clear innovation as a priority. So there’s this group of innovators, but the key with this is to recognize that certainly in the beginning, the innovation team are not the innovators, the innovation team are the facilitators of innovation. And so the next step was to take that small team and then go to each of the business units, the people who have the money, the lines of business and say we want a few people from your team full-time to be affiliated with the innovation team, but actually not technically part of the innovation team.

Stephen Shapiro: So the innovation team doesn’t direct their day-to-day work, but what they do is they bring them up to speed on the methods, the tools and the processes that are used. And so now we started to cascade it down into different business units. And then from there, those individuals in the business unit start to work with other people on their team. And we just developed this process whereby we were able to take that message and drive it further and further and further down inside the organization until you start getting enough momentum, and now it takes on a life of its own

Jeff Standridge: What kind of results have you seen? Any innovative products, services, solutions, or processes come out of that cascade?

Stephen Shapiro: Oh, absolutely. And I’ll say one thing, just in terms of results, I can’t talk about specific things that were developed. But what I can say is before we started working together, the definition of innovation or the approach to innovation was around ideas. And they had a suggestion box type thing, idea management, give us your ideas, give us your ideas. And they were getting a lot of good ideas. And what ends up happening, and I’ve seen this over and over, is if you have an idea-driven innovation program, that is you ask people for their opinions, suggestions, or ideas predictably at about six to nine months, things start to fall apart. Because what ends up happening is the ideas now become less valuable or they’re things we’ve always heard a thousand times or they’re repeats of other things.

Stephen Shapiro: So what we did was we allowed the idea program to start because it was a great way to get people comfortable with the tools, it was a great way to get people thinking about innovation. Everybody has an idea, so it was a great way of priming the pump. But then what we did is at that point, that predictable point where the value starts to drop off, we then started introducing a challenge-centered approach to innovation, which says we don’t want your ideas, we want your solutions to problems that we’ve identified that are critical to solve. And this company, others have done this too, but this company I had just remembered that they measured everything. I mean, look, they’re in financial services, measured everything.

Stephen Shapiro: And one of the things they saw is that the value from their challenge solutions versus their ideas solutions was a minimum of 10-fold improvement. They were getting much greater value because they were solving more important problems. And instead of going really broad and wide with ideas, they’re getting laser focused on what has the greatest impact. So it has a huge impact. And to me, it’s not specific innovations that matter, the value of this process was it was a continual flow of innovations over a long period of time.

Jeff Standridge: So you had leadership or others within the organization identify here are the business problems, here are the business challenges or the business opportunities, now let’s go put a team together to tackle that challenge so that it solves in I guess near-term fashion, very specific business problems?

Stephen Shapiro: Yes. In fact, one of the things we stopped doing and talking with some executives, we stopped calling it innovation. Because I call it innovation, the antibodies kick in and people are like, “I don’t have time for innovation.” But what we did is we had them go to the top leaders of each of these different divisions and said, “What are the three most important problems? What are the three things that keep you up at night that if these could be solved would have a huge impact on your particular business.” And wasn’t about innovation, which is still about solving problems, but it was framed differently. And we collected about 80 different challenges that kept these leaders up at night, and then we went through a process of reframing and sorting and prioritizing to get to the ones that we could solve.

Stephen Shapiro: And then the key is we used a variety of different techniques to solve them. In some cases, it was a team of people, “Hey, this group, you go solve it.” In some cases, it was, “We don’t know who’s going to solve it, it could be anywhere inside this organization. Let’s do internal crowdsourcing.” In some cases was external crowdsourcing where we go to seven billion people and ask them how they might solve it? So it was a portfolio of challenges that we identified, and then we used a range of methods for being able to find the solution based on the nature of the problem.

Jeff Standridge: Maybe unpack for us a little bit this concept of open innovation and open sourcing of how you’d solve some of those challenges, talk us through how you did that?

Stephen Shapiro: Sure. There’s a few different ways you can do it. I mean, in its truest sense, open innovation means getting anybody involved even internally. So I do distinguish open innovation from external innovation because you could do open innovation internally. So when we were doing open innovation internally, basically on the platform that was being used, we post the challenge, how can we? There’d be a brief people would provide solutions. And the key, and this is one of the things to think about is the advantage of challenge-centered innovation versus idea-driven innovation is each idea needs to be evaluated on its own merits. Whereas if you start with an issue, problem, challenge, or opportunity, you can identify specific measurable evaluation criteria right upfront. You can identify the evaluators, you can get the sponsors, the owners, the funding, the resources, everything identified before you get started. So that to me is a really powerful shift when we move from ideas to challenges.

Stephen Shapiro: And when we go externally, it’s again, the same type of concept. We need to have the right problem framed the right way to the right crowd and then people can provide solutions to that. But those are just a couple of forms. So crowdsourcing isn’t just the only form of open innovation, you could do tech scouting. Maybe somebody has already solved it, and there’s a marketplace where your solution could be purchased, or maybe you partner with a university or maybe even your suppliers. We’ve done some open innovation programs where we partnered with the suppliers and vendors of companies, because they had great insights into some of the newer technologies and capabilities that were being developed. And by collaborating with them, you could get ahead of the curve in terms of what’s coming out. So it’s basically, how do we find better ways of collaborating going beyond? If I’m doing a marketing problem, don’t just get the marketing department to work on it, look beyond the marketing department internally and then look externally.

Jeff Standridge: Great. Thank you.

Jeff Amerine: What are some other areas that are kind of top of mind for you? And you’ve covered a lot of ground, but if you were to think of specific tips for organizations that are really wanting to re-engage innovation and disruptive change and breakthrough, what are some tips for getting started that you might suggest?

Stephen Shapiro: Well to get started, I think the key thing is just make sure that you have leadership support. Because I really do believe we can try to do sort of this grassroots and it sometimes works, but it’s much more difficult. But I think the first thing is just to get clarity around why? Why are you innovating? What is it that you want? What’s the goal? The purpose? The outcome that you’re looking for? Because if we don’t have that level of clarity then it’s hard to innovate. And then to me, the next step, which is associated with that is to identify and clarify your differentiator. Because my belief is you don’t innovate everywhere, you only innovate where you differentiate.

Stephen Shapiro: And what you really want to do is identify what the capabilities, the products, the services, other things that you’ve developed that are the reason why people do business with you and not someone else? And if you spend your time actually improving and focusing on your differentiator, you get a much greater return. So when it comes to prioritizing innovation efforts, that is a great mindset to use to get you started because then you’re really solving problems that are going to have a much greater impact for the organization.

Jeff Amerine: Build on existing strengths rather than trying to shore up weaknesses through innovation?

Stephen Shapiro: Absolutely, absolutely. And I would just to add an important point though, is that a differentiator isn’t necessarily what you’re good at, it’s what the market wants. And so we don’t as an organization necessarily get to define or choose our differentiator, it’s the market, our customers, our clients that are ultimately going to determine whether or not we are differentiated. And so I think that’s an important point. There’s a number of, we could talk deeply about differentiation for 15 different podcasts alone. But I think that’s sort of a great place to start is getting that level of clarity because once you have that, you have everybody inside the organization rowing in the right direction, in the same direction, and hopefully investing in the parts of the business that will have the greatest impact.

Jeff Amerine: I’ve got one follow up. So we see businesses like Amazon that were marching down this path towards being the everything store. And they realized in order to do what we need to do, we’ve got to build this cloud-based platform, hosting platform, AWS, or we’re not going to be able to do what we want to do. And it turns out that ends up being a significant profit center. When organizations get to the point where they built something that solves a problem for themselves, what are their options in terms of turning it into an internal profit center or spinning it out into a separate company? How often do you face those sorts of things through the sort of innovation life cycle?

Stephen Shapiro: I think it happens. I mean, AWS is a great example of that and I could mention a few others. But I think that the reality is Amazon, Google and these other companies that we like to say, well, they do this, we should do that, there’s a reason why one of my books is called Best Practices Are Stupid. Trying to replicate what worked for someone else might not work for you. And in most cases, you probably don’t have the scale, the reach, the power, the resources that a Google or an Amazon has. And so I wouldn’t try to replicate what they do because it probably will lead you in the wrong direction. And so that to me is just the key is just making sure that you are doing what makes sense for you and sometimes taking a capability you do internally and starting to sell it externally might take your eye off the ball so you could spin it off as a completely separate venture.

Stephen Shapiro: One of the companies that I’m a huge fan of, in fact in full disclosure, I have a strategic partnership with them is InnoCentive. So InnoCentive, which is an external crowdsourcing platform was actually a niche initially built 20 years ago at Eli Lilly. The pharmaceutical company decided we can’t have access to all the best experts researchers in the world, so we’re going to create this platform when we have a problem where we need some type of chemical compound or formula created, we’ll go to the crowd, the external crowd. Well, eventually they decided that it was something that was powerful enough for them to spin off. And in 1999, they spun off an InnoCentive as a standalone company. If they try to continue doing that internally, that would have been great. But if they try to do it internally and offer it externally, it would have probably dissipated their energies and it wouldn’t have worked for anyone.

Jeff Standridge: I love books with punchy titles and Best Practices Are Stupid, I think is a great title but it’s as punchy as it gets. You talked a little bit about how we can get off track by trying to replicate something that another organization has done. Do you think benchmarking and identifying best practices has any use at all? Or if so, how would you apply best practices in a situation, “Hey, Amazon did this, how can we learn from that and apply it to our business?”

Stephen Shapiro: So I think there’s a couple things to keep in mind. One is if you’re looking at best practices from other industries, I think that can be helpful. Again, you want to adapt but not adopt. So what we want to be doing is looking for inspiration. And one of the things we know is sometimes the greatest breakthroughs actually come from somebody from a completely different domain of expertise that has solved the problem somewhere else that might be related to the problem you’re trying to solve. So that’s one thing. But even in the context of your industry, I think of the work that we do inside of organizations in multiple levels in the shorthand version of this the three levels are support core and differentiating.

Stephen Shapiro: Support are things which create internal value, but don’t create external customer value like payroll. Core are things which are the table stakes. It’s not why someone’s going to do business with you, but if you get it wrong, they will leave. And then differentiating is the reason why people do business with you. For things that are support and core nature, you don’t want to be recreating, you don’t want to be reinventing the wheel. So best practices, partnerships, outsourcing, and things of that nature are fantastic for those. Because if you spend less trying to innovate around your core again, which is what is expected of you then it frees you up. If you’re not focused on that, it frees you up to focus on your differentiator and best practices and partnerships and things of that nature can be very powerful.

Jeff Standridge: Very good. Let’s talk about how you spend your time today with your clients, where do you spend the most time and how do you engage with your clients the most?

Stephen Shapiro: Wow, that’s a tough one because it varies so much from situation to situation. So in some cases it’s actually very hands-on where I do one-on-one sessions on a weekly basis with people to walk them through a process. So I don’t do just “Hey, let’s get on the phone and have a conversation for an hour.” That’s not my strategy. I send them a piece of content. I mean, I have hours and hours and hours of videos, templates, tools, and other materials. So they’ll get the materials and then we’ll have a conversation around it so that they can apply it and see what comes from applying that process. So that’s one really great way that I love to work with companies. Sometimes we’ll do it in a cohort where we do the same model, but it’s with groups of people. It might not be as long or as intensive, but the goal is to build that advocate network.

Stephen Shapiro: And so one thing which I love to do is when I work with a company, let’s say we get 30, 50, 100 people, whatever it is, people who are interested in innovation and problem solving, maybe some level of self-selection. And we put them through a program where they now start to build the skills. Now I wouldn’t call them certified. And when I say certified, it means they can do what I do and they think the way I think. But it gives them enough so that they can actually start talking about this in a way that’s going to be valuable. And then from that group of 50 people, we will identify three, four or five people that go through the more intensive certification process because the goal is ultimately for me to become irrelevant and the organization of all the tools they need to make it happen.

Jeff Standridge: Got it, got it.

Jeff Amerine: Kind of one of the ways that we like to sort of land the plane on these when we’re talking to guests is a little bit of a retrospective, as you look at this career where you’ve established thought leadership and you’ve had large-scale profit-loss experience. If you were to roll the clock back 20 years, and you could give your younger recently minted, industrial engineering self some advice, what would that be knowing what you know now?

Stephen Shapiro: What would I do? I think the first thing is to recognize that from… So I’ve had my own business now for 20 years, so I’ll talk to that person, the person who started a business in 2001 is to recognize that having the greatest books, having the greatest content, having the greatest speeches, the greatest intellectual property doesn’t mean a thing. As a smaller business like I am, it is really about sales and marketing and having all the other capabilities. And I think that’s probably truism for anything. Even with innovation, we have the greatest solution to a problem, but if we can’t convince other people that it’s a great solution or that it’s even a problem to begin with, it’s not going to go anywhere. So as an engineer, I sometimes like to focus on processes and solutions and things of that nature, but really the thing which is so critical to be able to help any organization or any individual be successful are sales and influence and marketing skills. I think those are so fundamentally critical.

Jeff Amerine: Being able to tell the story, crucially important absolutely, no doubt about it.

Jeff Standridge: Makes me cool as a cucumber, I know that, even here in Arkansas, where it’s 127 degrees. Well, tell our listeners, Stephen, where they can get in contact with you and where they can find your stuff, if you will?

Stephen Shapiro: Sure. I mean, maybe the easiest place to start is going to a website called getthelenses.com because that’s where you can download all my tools and videos and other materials at no cost from the Invisible Solutions book. And then from there, you can learn about me and my speeches, my workshops, and all that stuff. But Get the Lenses, probably the easiest place to start. Or, of course, you can go to steveshapiro.com, if you just want to go straight to my home page.

Jeff Standridge: Very good. Well, ladies and gentlemen, today, we have Stephen Shapiro who is an innovation instigator, I guess I should say, and hall of fame speaker. It’s been a pleasure talking to you today, learning about how you approach innovation and some of the tools, tips, and tricks that you use with your clients. It’s been very informative for me, I know, and I know it has for our listeners as well.

Stephen Shapiro: Well. Excellent. I had a blast, great meeting the Jeffs so good to see you in all caps.

Jeff Amerine: Yeah, thanks for coming over.

Jeff Standridge: Okay. Here we go. Was that Jeff’s all caps or so good all caps?

Stephen Shapiro: How about all of it?

Jeff Standridge: Well, thank you so much for being with us. This has been another episode of the Innovation Junkies Podcast. Thanks for tuning in.

Jeff Amerine: We’ll see you next time. Hey, folks. This is Jeff Amerine. We want to thank you for tuning in. We sincerely appreciate your time. If you’re enjoying the Innovation Junkies Podcast, please do us a huge favor, click the subscribe button right now and please leave us a review. It would mean the world to both of us. And don’t forget to share us on social media.

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