Innovation Junkies Podcast

1.52 Michael Lee on Hidden, Everyday Innovations

Michael Lee, SVP of Innovation Minds, joins the Jeffs to discuss the process of an innovation sprint, creating a safe environment for innovation, and the intersection between innovation and employee engagement.

Michael Lee: Innovation is the activity that goes along with creativity, right? Creativity is a thought process. Innovation is the implementation of new ideas in the real world.

Jeff Standridge: This is Jeff Standridge, and this is the Innovation Junkies Podcast. If you want to drastically improve your business, learn proven growth strategies, and generate sustained results for your organization, you’ve come to the right place. Welcome to the Innovation Junkies Podcast.

Jeff Standridge: Hey guys, Jeff Standridge here. Welcome to another episode of the Innovation Junkies Podcast.

Jeff Amerine: Yeah, it’s great to be back.

Jeff Standridge: How you doing today?

Jeff Amerine: Happy new year, Jeff.

Jeff Standridge: Hey, to you as well, man. How’s 2022 going for you? We’re what? Couple, three weeks in.

Jeff Amerine: The SCC won the National Championship in football. So, how bad could it be?

Jeff Standridge: Yeah!

Jeff Amerine: Arkansas next year, and we’ll be happier.

Jeff Standridge: That’s right. And I don’t know how you feel about the outcome, but I feel like Georgia had to play two major opponents yesterday.

Jeff Amerine: You trying to say the referees were a little slanted? Maybe, on the Alabama payroll?

Jeff Standridge: At least inconsistent, at least inconsistent.

Jeff Amerine: Yeah.

Jeff Standridge: Hey, well, let’s talk about the guest that we have joining us today. Today, we are very, very pleased and honored to have with us, Michael Lee. Michael is a filmmaker and an author, as well as a master creativity and innovation coach. He’s a thought leader coach and an executive coach and serves as the SVP of strategy and marketing at Innovation Mind. And also the producer and host of Innovation Mind’s, At The Edge Podcast. Michael, great to have you with us today, and happy new year to you.

Michael Lee: Very much, thank you. And happy new year to both Jeff and Jeff.

Jeff Standridge: Yeah, we are the Jeffs.

Jeff Amerine: That’s right. Keep it simple for our guests. You only have to remember one first name. And before we get too far into it, Michael, one of the things that we like to do to kick these off is what we call a random musing. And for today, the question of the day is, what was your favorite activity during quarantine? Which, I know, is still top in mind, given that we’re all living through the Omicron wave of this thing. So, Michael, what about you? What’s your favorite quarantine activity?

Michael Lee: I’m going to give you an answer that might be boring, but I’ve always been really happy in the virtual world, right? So, quarantine has been great for me because other people have caught up, and I get to meet people every day, all around the world, who are new people. I get to know new people every single day. And I don’t think before quarantine that was happening. And it’s really a lot of fun. So, it might be boring, but my favorite quarantine activity has actually been being on things like this and meeting new people all over the world.

Jeff Amerine: Yeah, that’s great. Great answer. It’s brought the world closer together in some ways.

Jeff Standridge: Yeah.

Michael Lee: Well, interesting thing, you guys were talking about the football championships in the South, I think, right?

Jeff Standridge: That’s right.

Michael Lee: We are just kicking off the Africa Cup of Nations here in Johannesburg, not in Johannesburg, but I’ve been sitting in Johannesburg, and we’re just starting the African Cup of Nations, which is the other football.

Jeff Amerine: Absolutely.

Michael Lee: And other teams completely. We’ve got teams like Nigeria playing Zimbabwe. Comoros Islands, which many people probably don’t even know where that is. They made the African Cup for the first time. My girlfriend is a big fan of the African Cup of Nations. So, it’s that cross-cultural stuff that happens, that’s really exciting, I think here.

Jeff Standridge: Yeah, that is really good. And now, is that football, or is that rugby?

Michael Lee: It’s football, the kind that, in my original homeland, we call soccer.

Jeff Standridge: Yeah, yeah, got you. Well, I spent some time in Europe and went to what they called the Seven Nations Tournament, which was a rugby tournament if I remember—

Michael Lee: Yeah.

Jeff Standridge: Six nations, or seven nations, or something like that. So, anyway…

Michael Lee: I think that would’ve been college.

Jeff Standridge: So, my favorite pastime is to travel on an airplane with a mask and sneeze in a crowded area and watch people look at… No, I’m kidding, I’m joking. And this sounds like a theme, but it’s usually some an outdoor activity, either sitting on my back patio quarantining there, with a fire in the fireplace, if the weather’s permitting, doing my work there with my laptop in my lap. Or, perhaps out on the farm, I call it, “The farm.”

Michael Lee: Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Standridge: Did some work out there, but pretty much, an outdoor activity.

Jeff Amerine: Yeah, I’m in the same boat, so to speak. Semi-professional lumberjack, when I have time, cutting wood and maintaining fences-

Jeff Standridge: And goat’s herd.

Jeff Amerine: And I was going to say, an amateur goat and sheepherder. But, those are the activities that have really been… I’ve found a lot of peace in that, particularly in times when we weren’t able to get together, weren’t able to go into the office quite as much.

Jeff Standridge: Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Amerine: But, it’s been a lot of solace in all that for sure.

Jeff Standridge: Very good. Well, Michael, let’s shift into innovation here. And maybe, why don’t we start by just giving us your perspective on what is innovation? How do you define it? And let’s maybe start there, at the base level.

Michael Lee: Sure. And by the way, I think I liked your guys’ favorite activities better. So, you did well. Innovation, I have a very specific perspective on it. People like to separate creativity from innovation. I like to say, that two things about innovation that are important to realize is that innovation is the activity that goes along with creativity, right? Creativity is a thought process. Innovation is the implementation of new ideas in the real world, right? So, it’s really one spectrum. Nobody wants to come up with a great idea and never see it implemented, and nobody wants to implement stupid ideas either, right? So, for me, it’s very important that people realize that innovation is really just the natural result of creativity. And it’s really one of the most human things, if not the most human thing, that humans, we innovate, that’s what we do.
And all of the types of blocks that people experience against innovation, in companies, in the real world are really not about our own unwillingness to innovate. I think humans are driven to solve problems in better ways all the time, right? So, the second thing is that I honestly, really deeply believe through all the work I’ve done, that the most important innovation anybody will ever make, is to innovate yourself. And that innovation in a team or a company will only have a breakthrough shift, when the individuals in the team actually deal with the limits on innovation that we all have in ourselves. And I could go on for a good 30 minutes, just getting into those limitations and how to overcome them. But, the short of it is innovation is natural.
And I’m busy with a book that’s going to come out this year called Everything Is Innovation. Because I really believe that people overlook how much innovation is constantly happening in a company, for example. How much of the time, we are improving something in the way we work, in the way we interact, in the way we communicate. Every day, we’re looking to make things a little better, and that is innovation. It’s incremental. It’s a sustaining innovation. It’s not the kind that’s going to make the front page of the newspaper, but it’s all innovation. It’s what we do as human beings.

Jeff Standridge: Very good. So, can you give us some examples of maybe, some of the clients you’ve worked with, in some of their most unique innovations that you’ve seen, that we may not think of as innovation?

Michael Lee: So, I don’t want to name clients, but with the work I’m doing, I focus more on the innovation of the team itself than the innovation they’re looking to do, right? So, I’ve worked with, for example, clients in the entrepreneurial space, they were training other entrepreneurs, and they had a program they developed over a couple of years. Now, they had to expand that program. And they had to find new ways of working that they’d never done before. So, they need to innovate their processes, right? They had to look at ways to bring this to hundreds of people instead of a group of 10, or 20 people.
So, we had to look at, how do they actually become more effective? How do they deliver their content in a way that’s going to be actually delivering this the same quality to a 10X version of the delivery group, right?
I’ll give you an example of one of the first clients I ever worked with in dealing with innovating their team. The first step that we always look at is safety, creating a safe space to work in where people can really take risks, make stupid ideas, create failures, and feel comfortable with that. And that’s a very critical step in the process of doing innovation sprint, right? If people don’t feel safe, they don’t come up with the best ideas. We then spent a two-day process, the entire first half of the first day, dealing with the way their office was set up. This was before COVID. Because they didn’t feel safe doing creative work in their office. The way it was set up made them feel watched and judged by the leaders. And it was a small company with about 15 to 20 people.
And they only had basically two big rooms. The one room, one of the two chief officers of the company was always sitting there. And they always felt like he was watching them, to see what they were doing. And the other room was set up in a way that didn’t allow them to collaborate because all the desks were facing the wall.

Jeff Standridge: Hmm.

Michael Lee: So, it took four hours for us to come up with different ways of setting up the office, different ways of working, getting some of those 20 people, getting three or four of them to become leaders, and making sure that every day people felt safe to innovate. And it took us 25% of the entire time we were working, just to get that right, right?

Jeff Standridge: Mm.

Michael Lee: So, that’s the thing I’m talking about when I say we overlook a lot of the innovations that we’re actually achieving. And we say there’s only 5% of innovations that work, or when McKinsey says that only 6% of leaders think their innovation programs are working. I think they’re overlooking a large, large amount of stuff that is actually working because they don’t see it as innovation.

Jeff Standridge: Well, quick follow-up question on that. How do you go about engaging with the leaders or the decision-makers of the organizations you work with to get them to understand this perspective of safety and work? Because I can imagine, in a lot of smaller companies that are very entrepreneurial-led, there’s a bit of a steep hill climb to get the leader to recognize that maybe, the environment is not a safe environment for innovation. We all like to think we create a safe workplace and maybe very easily overlook some of the nuances of that. Can you talk a little more about that?

Michael Lee: Yeah, Jeff, to be honest, my experience has been that the smaller companies are easier to make, understand that. Because smaller companies are entrepreneurial-type thinkers, they are looking for answers quickly. They’re looking for ways to change the way things are going, right? If you go into a bigger company with thousands of people working there, the person that I’m dealing with in that company, or that we would deal with in that company, is inside of a structure that they don’t really see how to impact, right? So, I haven’t found it very hard in smaller companies, or micro-companies, to get them to understand the importance of this. What I’ve found it hard is in the big companies.
That they have an expectation of how it’s going to go and the way that I do innovations, for instance, I’m more interested in the innovation that happens in the team than the result they get out of that particular sprint, right? Which is for me, for example, with design thinking, what’s missing there? You get one good result, but the people don’t change.
And in a big company, getting the leaders, or even the people in the team, to really believe that things can be different, it’s much harder, I think.

Jeff Standridge: Got you. So, you’ve used the term a couple times, Innovation Sprint. Walk us through what an innovation sprint looks like with you and one of your clients, for instance? Just as an example.

Michael Lee: Okay. Well, mine look fairly different than the traditional ones.

Jeff Standridge: Okay.

Michael Lee: Right? What I work with, is a process that I’ve developed over the past 10 years. That really deals with the limitations that we each, as human beings, have put on our natural inborn creative abilities. So, we start with safety and making sure that the space is safe for innovation to happen, both individually and in the team as a group, right? Second step, is looking at identity and that’s again, looking at each individual innovator’s identity, as well as looking at the project itself. If you’re focusing on a specific thing that they want to create, or we want to look at how can we see that project as a human being itself? And how do we shift the identity of the people in the team and the project itself to fit the thinking we need for the project or the goals we’re looking for?
Because we all come in with our perspective, that’s the same every day, right?

Jeff Standridge: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Lee: In order to really think differently because for me, creativity is the ability to think differently from yourself, not from others. And being able to shift to meet the needs of the problem you’re solving. So, that’s the second step. The third step, is we go back through the first two steps and really make sure we’re happy with what we’ve put in place there, and that we’re actually following it. And by the way, that second step of identity is pretty complicated, because it’s really the critical key thing, is looking at all the different options for how do we recreate the way we’re approaching the problem. And then, we get to the brainstorming possibility of ideas, right? Where we can look at many of dozens of different techniques to generate lots of ideas, even terrible ideas.
You guys are probably familiar with some of the bad idea generation techniques, right?

Jeff Standridge: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Lee: World’s worst idea thinking and stuff like that. Only then do we look at the idea of their vision for the project. Because what I’ve found is that when you start from the vision, it messes you up completely. If you start from the vision, you are already placing your existing expectations and visions on where you’re going. So, you’ve already limited your thinking again. But, once you’ve generated a large number of ideas, then the vision helps you to find those, select the ones that you want to try, and really maybe reiterate some of it, rethink some of it, to fit the vision very specifically. And then, the final step we work on is the communication of that, which is, how do you actually land the plane, right? How do you actually speak about or implement the ideas you’ve decided on trying, right?
And so, if you look at the process, it looks a little bit like design thinking.

Jeff Standridge: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Lee: But, what you don’t want to do, is in the first step, in design thinking, you’re really thinking about the user. And you’re really thinking about the product. In this process that we work with, you’re really thinking about freeing your mind to have the maximum freedom to be creative, as you were designed as a human. And then, secondly, restructuring the way the team works so that they work together better in creating that process. Does that make sense?

Jeff Standridge: It does.

Jeff Amerine: No, it does. And I wanted to follow up. I mean, you touched on things that require behavior change and that are characteristic of getting the right culture. I think culture is probably a longer-term residue from the processes that you’re talking about, the change in culture. But, talk about how culture plays into that and how you see going from an island, if you will, of innovators, to having a culture of innovation catch on, particularly in a large organization.

Michael Lee: Thanks, Jeff. That is the question, right? Because, culture, it… You know that old saying that culture eats strategy for breakfast?

Jeff Standridge: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Lee: I had a guest on the podcast that said, “No, culture eats everything.” And it’s fairly true, right? If the company has a bad culture around innovation, it’s going to be very, very hard to shift that culture. And the bigger the company is, the harder it’s going to be. So, there’s one particular client I’ve just started working with and the person I’m working with there, is an innovation expert per se, her job there is to create innovations. It’s a broadcast company, so they’re looking for different ways to deliver their product. Obviously, with the situation with COVID, they’re suffering greatly, because the infiltration of lots of other competitors. And she and I have a conspiracy of how do we over time, shift the innovation culture of that entire company. That’s a two to five-year process, right?
So, what you do is, you start with the soft spot, you start with a team that’s actually the best, that has a team culture that works the best for innovation, or at least for collaboration, communication zone. And you get them excited about the process. You get them to show results. Then, the leaders want to know how are you getting these results? Then, you can educate the leaders about the importance of creativity, which as we know, is the single most important business skill for the 21st century. And nobody gets that in business itself unless they’re already creative, right? So, you give them a bunch of quotes from LinkedIn and Forbes, and so on, World Economic Forum. You show them that the great thinkers say, they need to become adaptable and flexible.
And so, what I’ve found, I guess, to summarize, is you need to start with a team that already is ready to be transformed into a higher, more effective, innovative team. You use those results to get the leaders interested and then get the leaders to understand, what has to shift in the culture. And then, you have to put together a plan with the leaders to shift that culture over time. And they have to be able to put in place the things that make an innovative culture work, right? Starting with safety, starting with failing forward, starting with providing time and schedule for people to do stuff that isn’t productive. The stuff that old school companies don’t want to have in their culture at all. But, that we know the template innovation companies all include that.

Jeff Amerine: Right.

Jeff Standridge: Yeah.

Jeff Amerine: So, it’s a matter of educating the leaders. But, first, you have to give them the incentive.

Jeff Standridge: Hey folks, we’ll be right back with the episode. But, first, we want to tell you about a limited opportunity to take advantage of our strategic growth diagnostic. For a short time only, we’re offering a free strategy call to see whether, or not our unique diagnostic tool is right for you. Go to to learn more.

Jeff Amerine: And how often, as you go through that process, particularly with a large client, do you see that the level of conviction from the leadership is around checking the box? What we sometimes pejoratively referred to as, “They just signed up for innovation theater”, so it looks like they’re doing something? Versus, real conviction around harnessing that creativity and the innovative spirit of their company to do something important. How often do you face that when you come into a client situation? Or, how often do you observe it?

Michael Lee: So, I don’t face that a lot, because if I get into that situation, I’m going to walk away from that client.

Jeff Amerine: Sure.

Michael Lee: If they’re really putting on an innovation theater show and they don’t really want results, I don’t want that on my CV. You know what I mean?

Jeff Amerine: Sure.

Michael Lee:
I have seldom seen it and it might be because I’m weird. I have a very different approach and I don’t think that companies with that attitude, across the board, and that’s really what they want to do, is just tick the box. I don’t think they would come to me, I just don’t think they would be motivated. This company, I mentioned earlier about the woman that’s in charge of their innovation area. She came to an event that I led to a couple hundred people and she was the most engaged of all of the people. She was excited because she saw a different way of approaching things, that might work better, right? So, I just think I’m not the person that attracts people who want to tick the boxes.

Jeff Amerine: Got you.

Michael Lee: So, I might be the wrong guy to ask there, but yeah, I don’t come across it a lot.

Jeff Amerine: No, that’s good.

Jeff Standridge: Yeah.

Jeff Amerine: No, you go ahead, Jeff.

Jeff Standridge: So, I want to transition a little bit here. And in the US particularly, but I suspect it’s happening in Johannesburg and surrounding areas as much so, and perhaps across Europe and other geographies as well as, is we’re reading a lot and experiencing firsthand this concept of the great resignation, the war for talent has never been like it is today. In fact, Jeff and I were talking just a few moments ago, about one of the companies that I’m involved in and our efforts to try to bring some folks in and how difficult that can be. How have you seen innovation and employee engagement intersect and benefit each other, so to speak? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Michael Lee: Sure. And this really lends into my work with Innovation Minds and the podcast that we do, is exactly about the intersection between employee experience, more engagement, and innovation. People traditionally have seen that engaged people innovate better, that’s not a surprise. But, what they also should notice, is that people, when they innovate, become more engaged, right? Okay, let me be more precise. Almost everybody wants to innovate. Like I said, at the beginning, it’s a human thing. We want to do better than we did yesterday. We want things to be easier. We want to make an impact that’s bigger, all the time. Especially, if it doesn’t take more work, right? If it’s not harder. So, that’s also an innovation, doing something in a way that’s easier, but still produces great results. So, those two things to me are intimately connected, right?
If you provide the opportunity for people to get their ideas heard, taken seriously, tried, even when those ideas don’t end up being used. You need to make sure that people in your company feel heard. It’s a simple thing, but it’s so important. So, when you’re running an innovation challenge or something, and you dismiss ideas, you don’t give credit to stuff, because it doesn’t seem to suit the culture, the vision, or you just think it’s a bad idea. You still need to give each person’s idea the sense that it matters and that they matter. Because, what I’ve definitely noticed and I don’t think it’s reached the levels in Africa, that it has in the more developed economies, right? Because people here are still grateful to have work. But, I deal a lot with people in the states, especially.
And definitely, the great resignation is a real thing. And what it is, it’s a shift, right? In how people see work. That work should be something that enriches them, not just enriches the company and that what they care about and what they want to see happen in the world, the company cares about and provides them the opportunity to deliver that, right? So, I just think the really simple thing, the connection between the two, is that they must both be happening. You have to give people the opportunity to have their ideas heard and implemented, even if they don’t end up being the thing. And you have to keep them engaged and interested in what you’re doing if you want them to come up with ideas that are important, that matter. Because, most people, I’d say, about 80% of people that I’ve come across, aren’t going to naturally innovate in an environment that doesn’t encourage it, because they feel like it’s a waste of time and that, they’re not getting paid for that.
The same people that will innovate stuff at their own house, won’t do it at work if the leaders of the organization don’t encourage it and create an environment where they can feel comfortable doing it and not feel judged, criticized, rejected. So, I think those two things, engagement, or experience and innovation, are the two critical factors in retaining people, and in attracting people. Obviously, things like, how much you get paid is important. But, what I’ve seen in the studies that I’ve looked at, is that the ability to actually make a difference is at least as important to them as what they earn. And a lot of people would rather take a pay cut to stay at a company they love than get a pay increase to go to a company that’s going to be worse for them.

Jeff Standridge: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Lee: And that’s the big shift that’s happened, is that people care more about what their life is like, not just, what their work is like. And weirdly, I think that this quarantine situation where people have been separated from work has brought them a lot closer to their work.

Jeff Standridge: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Lee: So, that they feel that their work doesn’t define them or contain them, but it needs to fuel them and give them purpose. I don’t know if that’s what you’ve seen in conversations.

Jeff Standridge: Yes, very much so, very much so. Tell us what a typical client for Innovation Minds looks like? Or, a typical client engagement, should I say?

Michael Lee: Sure. So, Innovation Minds is primarily, focused on a software-based platform, cloud-based. It’s basically, a hybrid workplace, right? The idea is to create a place that you can work wherever you are and have the best experience possible, that mirrors as much as possible, the real experience you would have if you were all working together in an office. But, also maximizing the benefits of not being in office, right? So, the secondary thing that Innovation Minds does is consulting around creating a workplace that works, whether it’s remote-hybrid, or in-person, around maximizing the levels of innovation and engagement experience. So, a typical engagement with a client, it is not something that they just go into an advertisement online and suddenly buy the product, right? It’s a big thing and the bigger the company, the harder it is to implement, because in the consulting area, sure, you can just put together a workshop.
But, if they’re going to implement the software, the company, it’s obviously a big lift, no matter what, right? Because, you’re committing to not just a particular task, but really Innovation Minds contains tools, or project management tools, or innovation tools, for idea management tools, for engagement and maximizing experience. So, the ideal client is going to use all of that stuff, right? Some people only want to use a piece of it. So, the normal engagement is a number of conversations, to get really clear about what they need? What their struggle is? And how we can implement the system in a very bespoke way? Even though, it’s an automated thing, that will really attack their needs, right? And make sure they have the right structure of how we put it together so that they get their needs met.
What we’ve seen right now, is there are two completely different types of clients right now. One, is people that are dealing with innovation as an issue and dealing with, how do you innovate when you’re not all sitting in one room? And how do you keep the conversation going, so that it’s continual and not extra work, or a thing where you do, stay up all weekend and get some cold pizza, that old-fashioned thing. We are creating a space where people can check into their account and then look at the innovation stuff, the new ideas, or the problems that need to be solved in 15 minutes and carry on with their other stuff.
The other client that we’re dealing with, is the people that are struggling to get their workforce to actually be happy and collaborate in this virtual situation we’re in. And creating a space for them, where they can start to hone everything down, get over things like tool fatigue, or opening seven different softwares to deal with what you’re doing every day. And actually, feel like they’re all in one place, right?
So, I’m going off your question a bit. But, the ultimate thing is that engaging with the clients, it really is a series of conversations to understand what their specific needs are and how we can meet those needs because it’s a big lift and it’s not cheap. If you go to a company with 500, or 1,000 people to take on an entirely new way of working in a sense, that can be very hard. So, right now, the workshop-style stuff, the stuff that’s shorter, and doesn’t require them to commit to a five-year process, is the stuff we’re finding a lot of urgent interest. How do they get their workforce to be better together? Communicate better, collaborate better.

Jeff Standridge: Very good. So, tell us where our listeners can find you and connect with you, Michael.

Michael Lee: Okay. Wow. Are we already at that point? Okay. So, Innovation Minds is very easy. You just go to the website, which is And I’m very sure everybody could spell both of those words. On that same website, if you want to check out our podcast, it’s called, At The Edge. There’s a drop-down menu that will give you the podcast as well. But, you can also do a slash after that address, with podcasts, with an S, after that. If people want to see more about what I do outside of Innovation Minds, you would go to Innotivity, we didn’t discuss, but it has to do with that process of innovation, creativity, etc. So, Innotivity is I-N-N-O-T-I-V-I-T-Y Institute. Or, just hit me on LinkedIn, Michael Lee.

Jeff Standridge: Awesome. Very good, very good. So, that’s Innovation Minds, At The Edge Podcast, and Innotivity. So, Michael, thank you so much for joining us today, it’s been a pleasure and if I remember correctly, you just said a few moments ago, you’re working on a new book called, Everything Is Innovation. When can we expect that to be out?

Michael Lee: Boy, I don’t want to get myself in trouble, but sometime in 2022.

Jeff Standridge: Okay, sometime in 2022. So, look for Michael Lee and his book, Everything Is Innovation to be coming out later this year. Jeff, any parting words?

Jeff Amerine: No, just thanks so much for coming on. We enjoy these conversations, a great deal. We feel like we get to talk to a lot of fellow travelers that are trying to be catalytic in entrepreneurial and innovative pursuits. So, it was really great having a conversation with you today.

Michael Lee: Thank you both, Jeffs. And thanks for making it so easy to talk to you both, with one name. Appreciate that.

Jeff Standridge: You bet. Thanks so much. This has been another episode of the Innovation Junkies Podcast. See you next time.

Jeff Amerine: Hey folks, this is Jeff Amerine. We want to thank you for tuning in. We sincerely appreciate your time. If you’re enjoying the Innovation Junkies Podcast, please do us a huge favor. Click the subscribe button right now. Please leave us a review. It would mean the world to both of us. And don’t forget to share us on social media.

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